Can the Austrians Economists Now Say: "I Told You So!"?

Hat tip to Reason Magazine:

George Bragues of Canada's Financial Post comments on "Paulson's Scheme" in which he says the anatomy of the current crisis represents analytical victory for the oft-overlooked school of economic thought known as the Austrian School of Economics. But, it won't be easy. Far too much of mainstream economic thought from Bernanke and Greenspan to Krugman and Stiglitz is totally "Non-Austrian" and simply cannot face the 800lb gorilla in the room because it renders silly, dangerous and woefully inadequate much of the over-used and over-trusted mathematical analytical tools that give far too many "modern economists" a false sense of wisdom in the face of ever growing complexity....complexity that is the result of becoming more astute in how to dodge, cover up, rationalize, "smooth out" and gloss over deviations and abuses of market fundamentals. But this astuteness in no way reconciles the fact that it is simply a dodge for all intents and purposes. A rodeo rider may become better at hanging on the the bucking bull and gaining a few extra seconds of seat time but that never obscures the fact that this skill is limited by the simple fact that the bull is stronger than him and he WILL FALL OFF. Market forces are likewise stronger economists. The problem with this relationship...as opposed to the one between the rider and bull....is that economists are able to obscure their limitations far longer than the rodeo rider. They can make things appear better than they seem and continue to cover the contradictions and implicit weaknesses in their actions. But in the end, their arrogance is always toppled by reality...a simple reality the Austrians stubbornly never lose sight of. Austrians see market fundamentals surrounding prices and the signals they carry to be iron-clad and they are correct in this stance.

And while I'm not an "Austrian" per se ( how can I be since I'm not an economist?), I do appreciate and fearfully respect this insight they have provided as much as I respect any simple law of physics that governs all mundane actions every day on this planet. Sometimes these price distortions are rather isolated and innocuous but other times they can be devastating writ large...like in monetary policy. To Austrians, interest paid for borrowed money is simply a price...just like any other price...whether it's for steel, rubber, apples, plastic or oil or what have you. And this price represents something very real. Price distortions become apparent quickly with things that have to be produced somehow and have multiple actors in profit/loss scenarios. Gas being sold at $1 a gallon right now would quickly show its bad effects. Producers and investors would lose money, we would run out of gas at the pumps and price signals for petroleum-based products would be sent into such a tail spinning whirlwind of confusion that I cannot even comprehend the implications. Same with other prices. But credit? It doesn't have the same physical constraints. Credit isn't tangible. It isn't something we "make" or rely on resources that require labor or other resources to produce. It may be real in some sense but it's abstract. It's easy "to make more" by simple fiat. It's almost like a promise. People have limitless ability to "make" promises. There are no supply constraints in MAKING promises. Delivering is another matter.

Arrogant economists have scoffed and laughed at these basic realities for decades. They have taught themselves so many theories and models (excuses) to make these basic insights seem simplistic or controllable or malleable. But they have only succeeded in giving the impression...not in making it reality.

Mr. Bragues opens his commentary by saying we have to "unravel the contradiction" taking place in the mainstream analysis of the financial crisis. The fact that many "experts" are finally acknowledging the loose monetary policy of Greenspan from 2001-2005 (and some would argue going back much earlier) represents an important victory for Austrian School Thought. And it is.

Says Bragues:

Austrian economists hold that downturns are the inevitable aftermath of loose monetary policy, thus opposing explanations typically heard prior to the current crisis that attributed recessions to price shocks, underconsumption or central bank tightening of monetary policy.But if, to rephrase a well-known Nixon quote, we are all Austrians now, it illogically only extends to the diagnosis of the crisis and not to the school's market-based cure. For it is just not consistent to simultaneously assign blame to Greenspan's easy money and then support government intervention to fix the damage, as so many of the business op-ed writers and talking heads on CNBC have.

As the Austrian tradition points out, the dilemma with easy money is that the central bank sets rates below that which the market would naturally set. The natural rate reflects people's willingness to trade present for future satisfactions. When the actual rate is established under this, entrepreneurs and firms are issued a false signal that people are willing to defer more consumption into the future than they really are. As a result, excess investments in capital goods industries, such as housing, are made on the expectation that these will pay off in the long-run. The boom ends when monetary conditions are tightened back to natural levels or the passage of time makes clear that the demand was never really there to sustain the investments made. At this point, a crisis takes place in which capital investments get liquidated and resources are shifted such that the economy's productive capacity more appropriately reflects people's time preferences.

But, as Bragues points out, most commentators resist following the Austrian logic through to its natural conclusion for fearing repeating the Great Depression. But this is a common misperception of the Great Depression: the idea that markets failed and that Hoover stood by with laissez-faire policies. The contrast between that and the truth is so stark as to be laughable. It shows that many either do not understand what laissez-faire is or that they consider what Hoover did to be somehow part of laissez-faire orthodoxy. Where they get this idea is beyond me.

The truth is that the Fed at the time did try to add liquidity, lowering its rediscount rate until late 1931 and continuously increasing reserves under its control. Money supply nevertheless fell, but that was because people lost faith in the financial system and hoarded currency. Meanwhile, Hoover met the downturn with interventionist gusto. He passed the Smoot-Hawley tariff to help domestic industries and obtained the co-operation of business leaders to support wages and investment. We haven't gone down this protectionist and corporatist road yet but Hoover's attacks on short selling and his creation of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, which among other things loaned money to banks, bear an eerie resemblance to the current policy response.

"We might have done nothing",Hoover said, "[but] we determined that we would not follow the advice of the bitter-end liquidationists." Thus has the Bush administration decided as well, having successfully cajoled a recalcitrant Congress to follow Hoover's example.

Hoover scoffed at the ideas being championed by people like Hayek and Mises, who at the time, warned against intervention to prevent the market correction. The monetary inflation-fueled bubble from the 20s had burst and the results were inevitable. The last time prior to this that there was financial panic was in 1920 when the monetary inflation and intervention from WW1 finally lashed back and sent markets tumbling. But nothing was done to stop it. It was allowed to correct itself and it was over rather quickly. The young Fed at that time had still not totally understood its abilities to meddle and did little fix the problem it had caused. You would have that they would have learned their lesson and resisted further monetary inflation and loose credit in the ensuing 20s. You would have been wrong.

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Please don't insult us...

I do appreciate and fearfully respect this insight they have provided as much as I respect any simple law of physics that governs all mundane actions every day on this planet.

...by falsely comparing us to your superstitious mummery.

We add to the sum total of human knowledge. That's a stark difference.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

I didn't realize that was supposed to be insulting.

As for the rest, I don't really get what you're trying to say.

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I can't tell you if it was supposed to be...

...only that it is.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Please don't insult physicists ...

by including yourself among their ranks. Your discussions related to physics on these very pages suggest that such a claim would be severely misplaced.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I refuse to believe

that we are going to see a flame war erupt over Austrian economists and physicists.

But if we really must, let's all try to keep the bashing confined to non-posters here...

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Correction-

a flame war over economists and physicists. I couldn't give less of a damn what "schools" economists divide themselves into.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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It's the market crash, Brendan

It's got everybody on edge... a cranky thread like this could be a sign of a market bottom though :-)

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I think I have a substantial

history of castigating economics as flim-flam, such that I can honestly claim the market crash has no bearing.

That said I would have ignored the thread if not for the gratuitous likening of economics to a real science.

UPDATE: actually I take back my initial assertion in part- the market crash does play one role. John is right that the Austrians will doubtless say "I told you so," as will every other branch of economists, and not one will be able to prove they are correct. That tells you everything you need to know about the field.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

You have a history if mistakenly thinking ...

that you have castigated economics, but you are incorrect.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Even handed?

... to your superstitious mummery.

This was likewise directed at a poster here, unless I am misreading it somehow. To whom does "your" refer in this context? Or did you intend that to be included in your admonition?

Besides, you can't really call THIS a flame war can you? 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Physics is

divine.

Humans on the other hand ........

It is the economy, stupid.

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It's not insulting at all.

establishing a proven causal relationship and relating to other causal relationships in other sciences is not insulting to anyone or anything.

The difference is that we can't defy physics but we can defy economics...at least for a little while...because it's a social science that involves people. We can TRY (in vain) to make the economy to work to out liking. We can't even entertain that notion in physics. Economics responds to human caprice, physics doesn't. That human factor leaves iron-clad answers to economic questions very contentious and harder to come by.

This matter of prices, I think, is pretty time tested. The warnings of Austrians on price theory seem to have stood the test of time....all human variables considered.

But in any event, I feel like I'm wasting my time and setting a worthless thread with willfully difficult and dense responses so I'll stop here.

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Speaking of physics and adding knowledge ...

Have you heard that the Big Bang is now defunct? The new Quantum Theory of Gravity suggests that it is actually the Big Bounce . Yet another example of scientific facts being, well, not really facts at all. Everyone was so sure that the Big Bang was right. Now we know it was a falsehood all along ... or do we? I expect its proponents to make a counter offensive some time soon.

Wasn't there a scientific consensus on the validity of the Big Bang? Hmmm.

 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Big Bounce

A quick skim of that article indicates that the theory does NOT nullify the Big Bang, merely adds to it:

In short, a big crunch may have led to a big bounce and then to the big bang.

So there! :P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Sorry, but this does nullify the Big Bang in its original ...

implications. The consensus within the Big Bang was that nothing came before it, or at least we couldn't know anything about what came before it. With the Big Bounce these things are no longer true.

When things that once were "true" according to a scientific consensus become suddenly no longer true, it seems fair to say that they have been nullified.

My only point, here, is of course that just because there is a scientific consensus on something it does not mean that the proponents of that consensus are "right". As we see time and again, more often than not they are actually "wrong" in some way or another. In other words, the fact that there is a scientific consensus doesn't actually mean much in the grand scheme.

And since you like to pull quotes to illustrate your point, let me pull one from the cover of the magazine in which the article appears:

Forget the Big Bang: Now its the Big Bounce.  Quantum gravity theory predicts the universe will never die.

And that's another concept which has now become "wrong".  The scientific consensus up until now has been that entropy will reign in the distant future with the universe disolving into a near perfect vacuum.  If things are oscillating that can hardly be the case, correct.  So much for THAT scientific consensus.

This is why making an argument for something like, global warming for example, based solely on there being a scientific consensus is effectively a meaningless position. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Baloney

This is why making an argument for something like, global warming for example, based solely on there being a scientific consensus is effectively a meaningless position.

So instead you would make an argument based on what? Your political views? Your religious faith? Your gut feeling? What?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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The scientific evidence itself.

Evaluate all the evidence on its merits rather than selectively discarding evidence based on some scientific consensus of people who have demonstrated time and again that their own theories are wrong.

Science is decided on the evidence, not a show of hands.  :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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All right then

Assuming you have read the hundreds of relevant scientific reports that have come out in the past several years...

Let's be extremely generous to your side and say that 51% of them support current global warming theories and 49% do not (keeping the "consensus" intact). How do you decide what to conclude? When looking at a particular piece of evidence, how do you decide what "its merits" are? Do you think you are better able to judge good science from bad science than the actual scientists who devote their lives to it? Or is your decision colored by your political views? Or do you flip a coin?

If you have not read all of them, how do you decide which ones to read? Are you more likely to read a report that is pointed out by fellow skeptics?

Edit: PS: Sorry for the thread jack, John. It's GR's fault! :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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The fact that you are still counting percentages ...

and talking of "keeping the consensus in tact" suggests that you believe that scientific truth is a matter of taking votes or who happens to generate the most papers. It is not, and I find it surprising that you seem to have a hard time understanding the distinction.

At one point in time the number of "papers" (i.e. educated opinions) that the Earth was flat far outnumbered the one "paper" (i.e. educated opinion) that first postulated that it was not. By your method of assessing truth, as long as the flat Earthers were able to get enough papers published to keep the percentages above 50% then you believe that we should in that circumstance still consider the Earth to be flat? I, of course, do not. That one single paper could be sufficient to turn even widely accepted theory on its head.

It doesn't matter how many papers there are which claim the Earth is flat, if the Earth is NOT, in fact, FLAT. Right? And it only requires a single paper which undeniable demonstrates that it is not to through the entire theory out the window.

It is the same with any scientific theory or postulate. They are "believed/accepted" until the evidence to refute them comes to light. But if the scientific community starts talking in terms of consensus, then they can effectively prevent the countervailing evidence from even being considered. This is not acting in a scientific manner, IMHO.

As you can see, the list of widely accepted "theories" which are no longer in favor suggests that scientific consensus is wrong more that it is right. The lesson is that just because a theory can claim it is accepted by scientific consensus, does not mean that it is right. Every theory should either stand or fall on its own merits, not on whether it is the view du jour about self-proclaimed "scientists". For this to happen the countervailing poisitions must be allowed to be heard, not suppressed as they are today with anti-AGW perspectives.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Disproven theories

As you can see, the list of widely accepted "theories" which are no longer in favor favicon suggests that scientific consensus is wrong more that it is right.

Really, and how does it suggest that? All it shows is that scientific consensus is sometimes wrong. Show me a list of scientific theories that have not been proven false, and then we can talk about whether they are more often wrong or not.

Besides, science rarely deals with provable facts, it mostly deals with disprovable facts. So it is no surprise at all that there are lots of theories that have been disproven. (Even though several of those on that list are examples of "an existing theory [being] replaced by a new theory which retains elements of the earlier theory; in these cases, the older theory is often still useful because it provides a description that is "good enough" for many purposes, is more easily understood than the complete theory, and may lead to simpler calculations.")

But anyway, the point of a consensus is that it is the current "best guess" of the experts. Same as if you are talking about anything, scientific or not. There is no scientific method involved in determining the validity of a consensus, it just is. If the consensus view is that Nights in Rodanthe is a crappy movie, that doesn't mean you won't like it, but if 90% of movie-goers thought it was crappy, then it is not an unreasonable decision to keep your ten bucks and stay home.

The fact that we are talking about a consensus on a scientific theory does not change the fact that  the concept of consensus itself is not a scientific concept, so your protestations that science isn't decided by a show of hands is meaningless. We're not deciding science here, we're deciding policy. And in my view the best way to decide policy, when there is no absolute truth that can be known, is to rely on the best guess of experts. You would rather base it on your best guess, it seems.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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But of course.

You would rather base it on your best guess, it seems.

As would every "scientist" that is part of the so called consensus. Like them, I trust my own judgement more than I trust that of others. But of course I am not claiming that I have all the answers nor am I trying to suppress countervailing views. They are. And they are doing so based not on logic but illogical ad hominem attacks and guilt by association arguments. These have no place in science and yet they are used against people who don't adhere to the AGW Scientologist point of view as a means to discrediting the people rather than arguing the science.

But anyway, the point of a consensus is that it is the current "best guess" of the experts. Same as if you are talking about anything, scientific or not. There is no scientific method involved in determining the validity of a consensus, it just is.

Bravo. Well said. Now you seem to understand my point. The consensus is not truth, it is the "best guess" of people based on their own preferences and biases, nothing more. It is not scientific and it has no basis in scientific thought or reasoning.

The fact that we are talking about a consensus on a scientific theory does not change the fact that the concept of consensus itself is not a scientific concept, so your protestations that science isn't decided by a show of hands is meaningless. We're not deciding science here, we're deciding policy.

You are deciding policy based on a show of hands (i.e. based on the claim of an established consensus), not the merits of the science involved. The merits of a particular theory or a potential counter argument are not contingent on there being a consensus. Ergo, the fact that there is a consensus (or not) should play no role in the science used to determine policy. Policy should be based on the merits of the underlying science alone. In other words, either something has been been dis-proven, or it has not, but that proof does not depend on a show of hands by a self-proclaimed set of "experts" which comprise only a small subset of the scientific community.

As Wegman demonstrated with the original Hockey Stick graph, the self-proclaimed "climate science" community is incestuous in that the members are in close collaboration with each other, they are frequently used as reviewers for "climate science" related articles, and as such they are in a position to promote their own views within the scientific literature while systematically excluding anything which doesn't support their view by labeling it "fringe science and hokum", regardless of the merits of the science involved. In this way the current peer-review system of scientific publication is severely broken.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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John, did you read this?

`New World '

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who convened the Oct. 4
meeting, called for a global summit ``as soon as possible'' to
implement ``a real and complete reform of the international
financial system.'' He said ``all actors'' must be supervised,
including credit-rating firms and hedge funds. Executive-pay
systems must also be reviewed, he said.

Then I read this from hiding under my desk... ;-)

``We want a new world to come out of this,'' Sarkozy said.
``We want to set up the basis for a capitalism of entrepreneurs,
not speculators.''

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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He's pandering.

Plus, Sarko is hardly the market liberal he claims to be. He's a crony capitalist...always has been. Nothing surprising.

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Obviously

That's because there is no such thing as a market liberal in France. The UMP (the most economically liberal party) is objectively to the left of the majority of Democrats.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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The yellow bars need to check their timelines

The yellow bars consistently fail to recognize the difference between fast action aimed at heading off an economic disaster, and action taken after the economic disaster has already happened.  Let's look at what they bring up as evidence of Hoover's interventionism:

1. Smoot Hawley tariff-- we can dismiss this, because even the yellow bars admit that nothing like that is being done or is even being seriously suggested currently;

2. Attacks on short selling-- Hoover tried this in 1931 approximately two years after the great stock market crash, after Gross National Product had already fallen nearly 10% the previous year and unemployment was over 10%.

3. 

4. Hoover's comment,

So the question is: what did Hoover do during and immediately after the stock market crash, the point on the timeline most analogous to the present?  He called business leaders together and appealed to their patriotism to encourage business leaders to invest and conduct business as usual on a voluntary basis.  Nothing even remotely similar has occurred to date in the present crisis.

Finally, "Hoover's  Paulson", Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon, was a staunch liquidationist, and held that office until 1932.  Yellow bars like to pretend that he had no power whatsoever.  That would be like pretending that Don Rumsfeld had no influence on the course of the Iraq War.

Bottom line: yellow bar equating of the bailout to Hoover policies to the present day bailout do not hold water and the "I told you so's" are not in order.  The yellow bars have some credibility with their comparisons of the runup to the depresson to the runup to this crisis, but they are overextending their comparisons.

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most excellent summary

Treasury Secreatary Andrew Mellon belonged to Hoover! *shudder*

I don't see anything that is going to get us out of this mess but to strengthen the basic economy by providing good jobs. Everything was all about global macroeconomics. It seems like the future will hinge on targeted microeconomics.

The markets are freaked out by the massively huge amount of unpaid leverage loses coming due (money market funds, pension funds). Investment funds (hedge funds) now have bills to pay, or are unwinding their positions, and they are selling like crazy so they have the cash to do so. It's sucking all the cash out of the system.

It's a freak out that the global markets lowered interest rates and the stock market reacted by going up briefly and then going back down.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Very good point:

I don't see anything that is going to get us out of this mess but to strengthen the basic economy by providing good jobs. Everything was all about global macroeconomics. It seems like the future will hinge on targeted microeconomics.

now follow through....

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3 things skymutt

Our current financial system and general economic system is far more diversified and developed than in it was in 1929. By that fact alone, the ability to cope with disasters is far stronger now. In that sense, it is apples and oranges in terms of market strength. And don't forget about the FDIC...it's role got a mention in the diary. Very important. It's like comparing a young child's ability to deal with the flu with that of an adult.

Secondly, no one is equating Hoover's policies with current action. That was stated.

As for the "I told you so" part, I don't see anything presented here by you to refute that idea.

Part of the problem with the comments in this thread is that they are choosing tangential, ancillary ideas to target instead of the main thrust of the diary...which is about the role of interest rates in economic boom and busts and the role of loose Fed policy in the current mess. Tlaloc chose to run off on on a tangent about about passing illustrative sentence about physics. You are making more...much more...of the Great Depression's timeline. Neither addresses the main point: Interest Rates via the Fed and crashes/busts. So, yes, "I Told You SO" is perfectly in order.

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re: three things

Secondly, no one is equating Hoover's policies with current action.  That was stated.

Bragues is clearly doing precisely that IMO.  He is linking the Paulson Plan with Hoover's supposed "interventionist gusto". I certainly don't remember reading where "it was stated" that this comparison was not being made-- feel free to quote the passage where this was "stated" if I'm forgetting something here.

And then you say this:

But what I'm arguing is that neither of you have provided any examples of this interventionist fiend Hoover doing much of anything interventionist (other than signing Smoot-Hawley) until the attacks on short selling in mid-1931, after the Depression was already in full flame.  The case for "interventionist gusto" is not made.  I've never said that Hoover "stood by with laissez-faire policies"; perhaps some people have said that because Hoover clearly did not just "stand by", but can we not agree that Hoover's approach lay somewhere between the extremes of "standing by with laissez-faire policies" and "interventionist gusto", at least in the period from 1929 to early 1931? 

As for the "I told you so" part, I don't see anything presented here by you to refute that idea.

I don't know about that... are you going to try to claim that the "I told you so" was totally restricted to the failures of the Federal Reserve, and not to Hoover's failed "interventionism"? 

Part of the problem with the comments in this thread is that they are
choosing tangential, ancillary ideas to target instead of the main
thrust of the diary.

How is it a tangent when it was you who included all the stuff about Hoover's "interventionist gusto"?  It's not a tangent, it's central to the "I told you so" argument being made here, which seems to be that no "interventionist" can head off the inevitable fallout of bad Fed policy. I'm claiming that Hoover was not an interventionist until most of the fallout had already happened, so there's liitle in the Hoover Administration to indicate that the Great Depression could not have been made much less severe by "interventionist" policies.  I'm 100% on topic in making that argument IMO. 

I don't even disagree about the Fed polcy stuff, but I don't know of many people who disagree with the idea that loose monetary policy played a major role in creating an environment ripe for a major downturn, so I don't know why anyone would say "I told you so" regarding that alone; it's simply not a very controversial point.

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re re: three things

Bragues is clearly doing precisely that IMO. He is linking the Paulson Plan with Hoover's supposed "interventionist gusto".

see:

We haven't gone down this protectionist and corporatist road yet but Hoover's attacks on short selling and his creation of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, which among other things loaned money to banks, bear an eerie resemblance to the current policy response.

To me, this answers that question. You see, I know Bragues couldn't possibly be equating them. It's quite clear he's pointing out a resemblance. That is not the same thing as equating. You may be predisposed to disagree. But hey, I just read what's there and take his intent as intended.

On the second quote, you are ironically equating the two periods in an indirect sort of way because you assume the same faculties and feedback speed as modern times. It was different era and with less knowledge to go on. We need to remember that human aspect when gauging reaction speeds.

Now I don't want to get into a long depression discussion but the collapse leading to the depression was not as sudden and clear as historical hindsight would lead us today to believe. The market had a series drops and little rebounds in the year after the big crash of 1929. The drought of 30 or 31 actually was a more severe blow to recovery than most people acknowledge and sent progress backwards even more.

Bottom line: things didn't get truly DIRE until well into well into 1930 and heading into 31. It was gradual and measures were there to "try and help" like cheap credit in the early years. It's not fair to pretend otherwise from present hindsight. Lack of consumer confidence resulting in fears from bank runs was a HUGE difference...as I stated. And Smoot Hawley was HUGE as well. It gave the economy a severe punch in the gut during that delicate 2nd year after the crash.

Next quote:

It's quite clear that "I told you so" is totally and unmistakably about Austrian Principle concerning interest rates and economic cycles. The rest is just extra meat.

next quote, it's tangential...quite clearly...because it is so obvious what the topic of the diary is: Interest Rates and Business Cycles. See: First 4 paragraphs of the diary (out of 6) and first quote from Bragues.

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re: re: re: responses

To me, this answers that question. You see, I know Bragues couldn't possibly be equating them. It's quite clear he's pointing out a resemblance. That is not the
same thing as equating. You may be predisposed to disagree. But hey, I
just read what's there and take his intent as intended.

 So, you get to be the sole arbiter of this guy intent-- which you claim to be able to divine without any possibility of being wrong-- while simultaneously splitting nonexistent hairs about the difference between "equating" and "pointing out resemblances".  I can feel free to disagree, which would be ignoring the author's intent.  Gotcha. 

Channeling GoRight, here's definitions of "equate" and "resemble" from the trusty skymutt dictionary: 

equate(verb): consider or describe as SIMILAR, equal, or analogous

resemble(verb)  appear like; be SIMILAR or bear a likeness to

On the second quote, you are ironically equating the two periods in an
indirect sort of way because you assume the same faculties and feedback
speed as modern times. It was different era and with less knowledge to
go on. We need to remember that human aspect when gauging reaction
speeds.

All this means is that possibilities for intervention may exist now that did not exist then.  Perhaps the fallout from huge monetary policy mistakes can be partially mitigated by interventionist policies in a way that was not possible in Hoover's time.

Bottom line: things didn't get truly DIRE until well into well into
1930 and heading into 31. It was gradual and measures were there to
"try and help" like cheap credit in the early years. It's not fair to
pretend otherwise from present hindsight. Lack of consumer confidence
resulting in fears from bank runs was a HUGE difference...as I stated.
And Smoot Hawley was HUGE as well. It gave the economy a severe punch
in the gut during that delicate 2nd year after the crash.

All fine and good.  I would point out once again that neither you nor the author have pointed out any "resemplances" in policy from then to now, until Hoover's attack on shorts in 1931, which I suppose is similar to the Cox short-sale bans of present day, and even there I don't think either policy was a huge factor in its respective crisis.

 It's quite clear that "I told you so" is totally and unmistakably about
Austrian Principle concerning interest rates and economic cycles. The
rest is just extra meat.

 Clear as mud.  You closed with the Hoover stuff.  As I read it, it seemed to me like you were building up to that. Hardcore yellow-bar types often try to make some variation of the case that Hoover was the father of the colossal failure that was the New Deal, and making that case is very important to them.

next quote, it's tangential...quite clearly...because it is so obvious
what the topic of the diary is: Interest Rates and Business Cycles.
See: First 4 paragraphs of the diary (out of 6) and first quote from
Bragues.

Ah, I see.  So in the final third of any diary, one can make sweeping assertions with impunity, since any response to anything in the final third of a diary is automatically "tangential".  Gotcha ;-)

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re re re re

So, you get to be the sole arbiter of this guy intent-- which you claim to be able to divine without any possibility of being wrong--

Hmmm, a wee bit over the top...don't you think?

I'm simply using his own words. I think it's that simple.

"equate", I would think, means to make consider them the same. "bear an eerie resemblance" is obviously not as strong. I don't think we need an arbiter here.

All this means is that possibilities for intervention...

Well, I kind of meant it as like the difference between how we handle any number of things now compared to back then. ...like surgery for instance.

All fine and good.

Yes. Yes it is. And considering the full meaning of the passage you are referring to as well as the previous quote, it's even better. The context, probable chain of events and know-how in the present in 1930 was not as obvious as it would appear today, nor was it as obvious as it would appear even with present hindsight. Smoot-Hawley was destructive and made things worse. Maintaining wages destructive and made things worse. Cheaper credit solved nothing. Basically, action and inaction together...on any level....made no difference in a positive way.

Clear as mud. You closed with the Hoover stuff.

No, crystal clear. You know better than that. I know you do. Look at the title. Look at the first sentence of the diary! What else could it be?? I don't think I need to illustrate what AGAIN what the thrust of the diary was. It's irrelevant at this point anyway since I've told you.

Ah, I see. So in the final third of any diary, one can make sweeping assertions with impunity,

No...obviously. The final third of THIS diary was obviously not the main thrust. Please, no "sweeping assertions". The part about the Great Depression is obviously (and you can read it again to see for yourself) was to add context to why mainstream economists are coming around to speaking out loud...finally...about the Austrian insight of interest rates and bubbles YET are still unwilling to follow that insight through to its logical conclusion.

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re re re re re

I'm simply using his own words. I think it's that simple.

You may have used his words; I actually considered his words and found his arguments to have flaws.  He talked about Hoover's "interventionist gusto", but the scattered and late examples he provided do not back up that description.  For interventionist gusto, see the New Deal.  Now THAT was some interventionist gusto!  More government intervention occurred in the first hundred days of the Roosevelt Admin, whether measured by quantity, substance, or effect, than in the entire Hoover Administration.

Here's the timeline of Roosevelt's First Hundred Days.  This is what 'interventionist gusto" looks like:

 

March 4

FDR inaugurated the 32nd president of the U.S. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

March 5

FDR issues a proclamation declaring a four-day "bank holiday"
throughout the nation effective March 6. All banking transactions stop
and embargo on exportation of gold, silver, and currency. Summons
Congress to special session for March 9.

March 9-June 16

"Hundred Days" session FDR gets a willing Congress to enact many of the New Deal programs. This first day Congress passes the Emergency Banking Act ,
giving FDR broad powers over banks and foreign exchange. Bank holiday
ends March 10--banks can reopen when they prove that they are solvent.
Within three days, 1000 banks will reopen and national confidence picks
up.

March 12

FDR gives first "fireside chat" .

March 31

Congress passes the Reforestation Relief Act, establishing the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC);
it provides work immediately for 250,000 young men (18-25) in
reforestation, road construction and developing national parks. Work
camps begin to spring up. By the time it eases in 1941, two million
people have worked on its projects.

April 19

FDR takes the nation off of the gold standard.

May 12

Congress passes the Federal Emergency Relief Act,
which authorizes immediate grants to states for relief projects.
Unemployment has reached 14 million-over one quarter of the nation's
work force.

Roosevelt signs the Agricultural Adjustment Act
to provide immediate relief to farmers by setting prices for
agricultural products and paying subsidies to farmers for curtailing
production of certain crops that were in surplus.

May 18

Congress establishes the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
to construct dams and power plants along the Tennessee Valley;
electricity will go to residents, many of whom lacked it previously,
and fertilizer will be sold.

May 27

Congress passes the Federal Securities Act to monitor and regulate stocks and bonds.

June 6

Congress passes the National Employment System Act.

June 13
Congress passes the Home Owners Refinancing Act
to provide mortgage money and other aid to homeowners. It will go out
of business in June 1936 after providing loans for some one million
mortgages.

June 16

The final day of the "Hundred Days" session . Congress passes the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) establishing the Public Works Administration (PWA) and the National Recovery Administration (NRA).

The PWA is authorized to supervise the construction of roads,
public buildings and other projects while providing employment.
Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes is tapped to head the PWA.

The NRA's goal is to stimulate competition and benefit producers and
consumers by implementing various codes to establish fair trade.
Compliance was to be voluntary; those who cooperate received the blue
eagle "seal of approval." NRA is to be directed by General Hugh Johnson . It will be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in May 1935.

Congress also passes the Farm Credit Act and the Banking Act of 1933 (which establishes FDIC). 

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma02/volpe/newdeal/timeline_text.html

This also puts the lie to the claim that Hoover couldn't possibly have acted more swiftly or done more because it was a different era.  Roosevelt operated in the same era and whether you agree with every program or not, you have to admit that there was a great deal of intervention and it didn't take years and years.

No, crystal clear. You know better than that. I know you do. Look at
the title. Look at the first sentence of the diary! What else could it
be?? I don't think I need to illustrate what AGAIN what the thrust of
the diary was. It's irrelevant at this point anyway since I've told you.

Well, whatever your intent was, the fact is that you included the claims of Hoover's "interventionist gusto", and, not seeing any labels in your diary that delineated what parts were "thrust" and what parts were "not thrust", I have chosen to focus on those claims.  Why the resistance to discussing the subject?  It's not like it's an insignificant topic of discussion, and it is vital to the "logical conclusion" that you hint at.

You have repeatedly chosen to merely to assert that things are
"simple", "clear" or "obvious"; when I have made claims, notice how I
have made some attempt to explain myself.

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re re re r e re re

On the first quote,

What you went on to say there is a bit different. I was referring to the idea the Bragues was "equating" current policy to Hoover...which he was not. That's what I meant by "using his own words".

And yes, I'm well aware of the timeline. But here:

This also puts the lie to the claim that Hoover couldn't possibly have acted more swiftly or done more because it was a different era. Roosevelt operated in the same era and whether you agree with every program or not, you have to admit that there was a great deal of intervention and it didn't take years and years.

That was FDR operating in 1933 with 4 years of hindsight. The events of 1929-1930 had already passed. FDR merely ramped Hoover's policies and then some. But this doesn't really speak to how things looked or what options appeared to be in real time in 1929 and 1930. FDR came in at near rock bottom....and yet, as an aside, for the interventions, we never recovered from the Depression as a result of his policies....a pretty well understood fact now....sorta.

As for the last, I thought the theme of the diary was clear. It was about Austrian Economics and their insights on interest rates and business boom/bust cycles. The Depression part, again, was to put explanations for current action...beyond diagnosis...into perspective. That's all.

And I generally don't find talking about the Depression to be all that interesting or enjoyable simply because too many modern POVs on the matter or clouded with truthy nonsense. It's only recent years that these misconceptions have begun to be corrected....and the process will continue to be slow and full of junk because because far too many people have a vested interest in remembering the 1930s and FDR's policies as something other than what they were. Too much clinging to a fairy tale.

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The new deal didn't even work....It probably prolonged things...

...it was the Second World War that ended the depression.

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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PS:

If you look at Wiki and scroll down to Austrian Explanations, you can read more about it.

I find this quote remarkable:

Hayek, writing for the Austrian Institute of Economic Research Report in February 1929[16] predicted the economic downturn, stating that "the boom will collapse within the next few months."

Mises:

Ludwig von Mises also expected this financial catastrophe, and is quoted as stating "A great crash is coming, and I don't want my name in any way connected with it,"[17] when he turned down an important job at the Kreditanstalt Bank in early 1929.

and finally:

In the Austrian view it was this inflation of the money supply that led to an unsustainable boom in both asset prices (stocks and bonds) and capital goods. By the time the Fed belatedly tightened in 1928, it was far too late and, in the Austrian view, a depression was inevitable.

The artificial interference in the economy was a disaster prior to the Depression, and government efforts to prop up the economy after the crash of 1929 only made things worse. According to Rothbard, government intervention delayed the market's adjustment and made the road to complete recovery more difficult.

Funny thing is, I can show you a slew of articles in recent years from Mises.org warning about the same thing before it happened.

Bottom line, I think there's a hard lesson that needs to be learned by mainstream economics that its adherents are still refusing accept....despite all the evidence.

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Some Bubble Talk

2003

2007

2005

2003

2006 (short and sweet)

8/2007

2005

2004

2006

And that's just page 1 of a shoddy Google search...

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All I can say is this:

Sometimes those that are best at identifying problems don't come up with the best solutions once the damage is done.  I think it takes different mental muscles to some extent.  So just because yellow bars predict a crash and it happens, does not mean I'm going to blindly accept their proposed remedies.

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sometimes....

sure.

Whether that applies here is another matter. And I don't see that it does. And again, this all gets back to what the diary is all about:

Mainstream economists and economic commentators are FINALLY starting to acknowledge a simple causal truth that Austrians have been pointing out for well over half a century....a truth that they had never acknowledged in the past, mind you. Yet, even though they are finally acknowledging the true and correct diagnosis of the problem, they aren't letting that guide them towards a solution or at least realization of what the helpful options really are.

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John, I am tripp'in...convince me not to...

....China calling for global currency, France calling for new economic order, America bailing out companies, and buying up bad mortgages, we cut interest rates on a global basis today, after the misguided 700B handout the market continues to free fall, we are undermining the capitalist system!

We got Paulson, Berneke, Pelosi and Ried calling the shots!

OMG!

Obama looks reasonable because MCCAIN SAYS HE WANTS TO BUY UP BAD MORTGAGES!?!?

What happened, where am I?

How do we get back to America, to capitalism, to freedom?

Look at the 1930's, once we lose our freedoms, they never come back...

I don't know if the economy will slide into a depression, but I am certainly likely to!

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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Worse case scenario?

We end up like the western european nations? Is that really so bad? Good vacations, better health care, and maybe a better balance of work vs. life. Sure, more limited GDP growth, but any growth is still growth.

So what exactly is the concern?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Right now that

sounds divine. Especially the vacation part.

This privatization scam just screws people out of all benefits. No vacations, no health care, no sick days, no retirement. Lot's of government work has been farmed out as contract labor, or privatized.

It is the economy, stupid.

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If thats what you want move there?

I want the constitution back, freedom FROM government, States rights, self reliance, I wanna keep what I earn, and you keep yours, EERRRRRRR!!!!!!

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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*shrug*

I could ask why you don't move to Hong Kong, a country (or technically region) that would seem to be more in line with your prefered economics...

My guess is the answer in both cases would be the same- born here, friends and family here, etc.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Well...

I just want my country BACK, you want a new state of affairs in our country.

America is being ruined by those that do not like what America is all about.

And the sad thing is the average guy or gal is just sitting by idle and watching as the country we love and it's core principles are being usurped by the Barney Franks, George Soros' , Nancy Pelosi's, and Barack Obama's of the world.

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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Historical revisionism

What you want we've never really had, and if you got what we used to have you'd pretty quickly figure out why we changed. There's a reason we created the New Deal, a reason we put in place various regulatory bodies and social safety nets. It really wasn't all a plot by communists :)

As for "what america is all about," I'd say the will of the people is what america is all about, and thus this move (assuming it is popular) is reflecting precisely american values.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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As I just mentioned...

...in another post, the New Deal was not a success in my view, it was WW2 that ended the depression, the new deal prolonged the thing for 10 years!

What I want we had, and we had for a long long time, the first crack in government gone wild was in 1913, and then the hay day of 50 years of governmental expansion and intervention was from the early 1930's till 1980!

Other than that we had the other 230 years of constitutional government.

If there's any revisionism going on here, it's on your part.

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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Long ago on the bail out...

The American Enterprise Institute warned us from the
beginning. Government intrusion into the market ALWAYS has unintended
consequences. It was wonderfully idealistic to give mortgages to people
who manifestly couldn’t afford them, but economic reality doesn’t care
about your motives.

New York Times article

In a move that could help increase home ownership rates
among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation
is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from
banks and other lenders. . . Fannie Mae, the nation’s biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits. . .

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie
Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any
difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized
corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980’s.

”From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another
thrift industry growing up around us,” said Peter Wallison a resident
fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ”If they fail, the
government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up
and bailed out the thrift industry.”

Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended
to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add
that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority
and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than
non-Hispanic whites.

 

Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich.” ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.


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Unrealistic leverage

Fannie and Freddie are such a minor part of the problem, compared with the unscrupulous unethical leveraging of risk, after the fact. It was what was done after the loans were sold to investment banks that has caused this problem.

No one in the aggressive investment industries cared that the loans were bad. No one.

And you miss the piece of the puzzle where investment banks were begging for more, irrespective of the insane risks.

Any pool of credit was seen as hitting the jackpot, for the Wall Streeters, because they could chop it up and re-wrap it as shiny glittery package of free market salvation for the world.

It is the economy, stupid.