Monday Open Thread

June fundraising numbers are in. Sen. Obama raised over $51 million while Sen. McCain over $21 million. Sen. Clinton is reporting campaign debts of over $25 million, but about half that is to herself.

Salim Hamdan of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld fame will face a military tribunal today for providing support to Al Qaeda. Hamdan, an "illegal enemy combatant", will likely not be released even if he is acquitted of these charges.

Submitted by stinerman on Mon, 2008-07-21 06:49

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Drivers Wanted

That whole Washington Post article [linked above] is a treasure trove of priceless quotes.

If Hamdan is convicted, the verdict would automatically be reviewed by a Pentagon official and then appealed to a military appellate court. His attorneys could then appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals in the District and the Supreme Court -- and could challenge his enemy combatant designation at each level of review, Pentagon officials said...Hamdan's lawyers continued to insist that he was a driver and mechanic who relied on bin Laden only for a paycheck..

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

by: Brutus14 - 2008-07-21 08:07 …………

McCain is getting pummelled by "translation" issues.

Well, what do you expect? We've all seen by now that Iraqi PM Malaki said last week he agreed with Obama's stated preference of US troops being gradually pulled out of Iraq over 16 months. Last week various repub functionaries said that isn't what Malaki said at all. So Malaki once again states what he wants, a timetable for a pull out and McCain again says it's a translation problem . The full transcript was released and 3 other news services have translated the transcript and say that that is what it says.

McCain says he knows better that what an Iraqi politician says he wants. We went through this last Thursday & Friday.

With that in mind, you'd think the McCain camp would have a better response to this timetable question that giving out a lame he said she said reply. But then again, the McCain camp is run by the challenged.

by: kindness - 2008-07-21 12:33 …………

McCain is

old and stupid.

Taxes pay his salary, his social security, and his VA pension. His rich wife pays for everything else.

He hasn't earned anything, including the respect of his own party.

What a loser.

It is the economy, stupid.

by: missliberties - 2008-07-21 13:43 ………… parent •

I wouldn't go that far

He's earned a lot because he signed up to defend the country.

I don't like where our troops are being sent and why they're being sent there, but I have the utmost respect for someone who decided to make protecting our country his life's work; there's no doubt he loves his country.

I don't agree with the man's politics, but I do respect him very much.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- ~~George W. Bush~~ Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

by: stinerman - 2008-07-21 14:06 ………… parent •

I don't

The more I get to know him the less I respect him for many reasons which I won't go into right now.

It is the economy, stupid.

by: missliberties - 2008-07-21 14:32 ………… parent •

"Defend"

He's earned a lot because he signed up to defend the country.

I find that slightly credible if we are talking about a WW2 vet. Those people really did defend our country against a hostile power.

I find the notion far less credible if talking about troops in Europe who offered some deterence against Soviet expansion.

But for guys whose job was to bomb Vietnamese villages? No. They deserve nothing but scorn.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

by: Tlaloc - 2008-07-21 16:12 ………… parent •

I respect the man McCain. I have less respect for the

politician McCain.

Where he might have been an "independent" back in the 90's, with the advent of the bush43 Administration he tied himself increasingly tightly to that Administrations breast.

Look at the folks he's surrounded himself with running his campaign....All the controlling aspects are via Rove & his operations. Look at the spin they're using now....all Rovian.

I have respect for the McCain that went to Vietnam, but I have just as much respect for anyone who went to Canada or Sweden during those years. Vietnam was a damn stupid undertaking by this country just as Iraq is the modern day version of it.

by: kindness - 2008-07-21 17:11 ………… parent •

Why?

I have respect for the McCain that went to Vietnam...

To my mind that makes as much sense as saying you respect a russian soldier who occupied afghanistan, or a Japanese soldier that took part in the rape of Nanking. These acts were pure warmongering- violence for the aggrandizement, not defense, of the homeland.

Vietnam is as wrongheaded a war as one can imagine. We became involved in the internal affairs of a sovereign state that had no repercussions upon us in order to support wrong headed foreign policy goals and corporate profit margins. In the process we committed innumerable atrocities and wasted thousands upon thousands of lives (ours and theirs). It was wrong from beginning to end, and you can't get wronger than that (to quote Carroll I think).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

by: Tlaloc - 2008-07-21 18:12 ………… parent •

Interanal Affairs of what country? South or North Vietnam

You were against the US meddling in South Vietnam affairs?
Or against the North Vietnam trying to force South Vietnam to go along with a "National" election run partially by a country with state owned media?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

by: Brutus14 - 2008-07-22 02:45 ………… parent •

meddling....you mean like when the US backed the '63 coup?

You know, the one where the democratically elected President Diem was assasinated? Diem was corrupt, but after that coup, S. Vietnam went from being a Republic to a Military Dictatorship.

It's curious how you find one "meddling" offensive and another equally galling example to not even merit a mention.

Vietnam was a terrible blot on our nation's history and character. It is truly sad that men who refused to serve when it was their turn to do so during that era forgot all the lessons that page of history taught us and went an pulled out the same thing when the bush43 regime decided to attack and occupy Iraq. Truly sad that they have killed 4500 good GI's in a crappy attempt to do what their fathers (& they themselves when it was their turn) could not do.

To put ego above the needs and interests of the country is tantamount to treason. Dubya & Darth deserved to have been impeached.

by: kindness - 2008-07-22 09:53 ………… parent •

does proximity matter?

When we look at the idea of "meddling", does the proximity of the meddler matter? Sure you can say that the NV were meddling in SV affairs, but they were the same nationality. Furthermore, I think there's a distinction to be made between countries that meddle in the affiars of one other country, and those that meddle in the affiars of all other countries.

As much as we might like humanity to be one homogenous brotherhood, the reality is that cultural differences and national identity do exist. Westerners had been interfering in the political development of Asia for a long time (typically without regard for the welfare of the natives). There's a point at which we needed to let them sort out their own issues without dropping bombs on them.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

by: adam ricketson - 2008-07-22 10:45 ………… parent •

McCain gets a tax-free disability pension

VeteransAffairs of 58,000. The sum was listed on his tax form.

Not sure how that works. McCain is getting a very high amount of disability. Especially considering that he was certified by the Navy to be 100% capable of returning to active flight status.

John, "I will take your tax money" McCain.

It is the economy, stupid.

by: missliberties - 2008-07-21 21:41 ………… parent •

The Politics of Contrast

------

It is the economy, stupid.

by: missliberties - 2008-07-21 21:43 ………… parent •

You make a point

That's what he signed up to do -- defend the country. He isn't allowed to pick and choose where he's ordered to go. It's Congress who authorized Vietnam and the President who commanded the soldiers to go there who should be the target of your scorn.

However, I do understand your point. Since we don't do a whole lot of defending anymore, a soldier would have to suspend disbelief that he's going to be engaged in actions that have very little to do with defend the country but rather defending the country's interests which can further be distilled down to "making the world safe for profit".

These defenders have decided to go the National Guard route, and I certainly salute them because the National Guard was always the place to go if you wanted to be reasonably sure you were defending rather than offending. Now that doesn't even save you. Guardsmen are being sent to Iraq by the boatload. If you recall being in the Guard was what got you out of Vietnam. Today it gets you in Iraq.

You have to get down to the tertiary State Defense Forces to be assured you aren't going to be "defending your country" by occupying a country 12 time zones away. I've thought of joining Ohio's SDF but I don't want to commit to it with much of my living/job arrangements up in the air.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- ~~George W. Bush~~ Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

by: stinerman - 2008-07-22 05:42 ………… parent •

Coast guard's okay

Granted they get involved in a lot of drug interdiction, which is an extension of a stupid policy, but at least they aren't used to attack other countries.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

by: Tlaloc - 2008-07-22 10:23 ………… parent •