The Price of Gas

Promoted by Brendan

John McCain has introduced legislation to the Senate to temporarily eliminate the federal gas tax. Hillary Clinton was quick to jump out in support of this “Gas Tax Holiday.” I thought her opinion was that Republicans don’t have any good ideas? Well, if she sees this as an example of a Republican good idea, then her judgment is even worse than I expected. But I suspect both McCain and Clinton know that this is not a good idea. It’s an idea that sounds good to the average American, though, so it scores them political points. At least Barrack Obama recognizes it as a bad idea. He should know, since it was tried on a state level in Illinois in 2000, while he was a Senator there. (He voted for it at the time, but when legislation was introduced to eliminate the tax permanently, Obama voted "no.")

So why is it a bad idea? Well, the obvious reason to me, an environmentalist, is that lowering the price of gasoline will encourage increased usage, at a time when it is critical that we be encouraging conservation and decreased usage. It seems to me that McCain and Clinton are more interested in reassuring the passengers as they accelerate the bus towards a cliff. Obama seems to get that it might be a better idea to concentrate on slowing down, and hopefully even turning away from the cliff. I’d like to ask McCain and Clinton the following question: “If you believe as you claim, that human-produced CO2 is at least partially responsible for global climate change, why on earth would you support legislation that encourages increased use of fossil fuels?”

That’s reason enough for me to discard the idea of the gas tax holiday. But the thing is, it is also a bad idea according to many economists .

"It's basic economics," said Leonard Burman, director of the Tax Policy Center, a non-partisan thinktank. "Gas is always in very short supply during the summer, which is why prices go up. In order to reduce the price, you would have to increase supply, but that is difficult over the short term, because the refineries cannot add capacity."

James Hamilton, professor of Economics at the University of California-San Diego, said that most of the benefits from a temporary tax moratorium would likely go to producers rather than consumers. He said that states that suspend gas taxes are able to respond to rising demand more efficiently than the country as a whole, because gasoline supplies can be easily moved from one state to another.

"Prices would certainly rise to the market-clearing level," said Hamilton. "I would expect the price [of gas] to go back to very close to where it was before [the tax cut], in which case consumers would not see any benefit."


Obama gets it: "We're arguing over a gimmick that would save you half a tank of gas over the course of the entire summer so that everyone in Washington can pat themselves on the back and say they did something… Well, let me tell you, this isn't an idea designed to get you through the summer, it's designed to get them through an election."

Fortunately, it seems pretty unlikely that this legislation will pass. Hooray for a Democratic-controlled Congress!

In the meantime, what can you do to save the equivalent of the federal tax’s 18.4 cents per gallon? There are plenty of good ideas to be found on the web. A few obvious ones:

  1. Drive less. Duh. Okay, so you live thirty miles from work and have to drive there. Look into carpooling. What about non-work related driving? Is there any place you normally drive where you could walk or ride a bike? Take a bus? Look into it. Move closer to work, if that is an option.
  2. Make sure your car is as efficient as possible – old air filters, poorly inflated tires, old oil – all these will decrease mileage. Get a tune up.
  3. Next time you buy a car, take mileage into account. If “Zero to sixty in 5.2 seconds” is a better sales pitch than “35 miles per gallon,” then you deserve the pain you are feeling at the gas pump.
  4. Read the two links above. There really are some good ideas there.

Gas prices are not too high. We’re just using too much gas.

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Even if one is of the opinion that gas prices

are "too high" in the sense that some people can't afford to do necessary driving, a better way to address that is to target subsidies towards low-income workers. Sort of like LIHEAP for gas. I'm not really advocating that, it's still a short-term patch that doesn't address the underlying problem, but at least it would make more sense IMHO than subsidizing every Hummer fill-up.

One long-term approach would be to cut some sort of deal with Detroit where they produce cars with better mileage and the government helps out with some of their health care costs, as Obama has suggested . Just jacking up standards without doing something to cushion the blow on American industry might be counterproductive. Of course such government action may not be required as consumers increasingly choose fuel-efficient vehicles anyway (an effect that would be undermined by artificially lowering gas prices).

The other obvious candidate for government action is funding alternative fuels. Here the negative effects of driving up corn prices by subsidizing ethanol are becoming clear, and long-term ethanol is not a great choice anyway, although it's become more efficient. Obama in particular seems too wedded to ethanol. There are some non-food bases for alternative fuels that are promising and could benefit from a little extra cash to get off the ground. If oil prices get high enough this will happen naturally but it may be in our interests to prepare the transition.

The one thing I don't see happening anytime soon is a sharp reduction in consumption. Not that it wouldn't be nice in theory, just that my impression is that most Americans aren't keen on sacrificing lifestyle even with increasing environmental and financial costs. There are ways to encourage fuel-saving measures like carpooling, such as those special carpool lanes, but I'm not sure how much of an effect they have.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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It's going to hit the fan soon

Most of our cities and especially suburban areas were built with cheap fuel in mind. Mass transit is just about non-existent west of the Mississippi. Europe is coping much better than we are because they have made a significant investment in public transit.

I'm fully of the opinion that the days of the suburb are numbered. No one is going to want to live in a bedroom community when gas is $8-10/gal come 2012. I think we'll see a reversal of white flight take place within the next 10 years or so. Along with gentrification, the poor will be forced to take up housing farther and farther away from city services. The Dublins, Centervilles, and Cuyahoga Fallses (all suburbs of major cities in Ohio) will be tomorrow's slums.

The people who live in rural areas (most of my family) will be especially hard-hit. Demand for gasoline is especially inelastic for them. If the nearest store is 10 miles away, they have to drive there no matter what the cost.

We're going to have to make some tough choices in the relatively near future. How responsibly we deal with them is going to make or break our country.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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What can give you an ulcer

is just how needless all this pain will be. If people had just the slightest modicum of sense or proportion they would have easily avoided this. But they don't. Their greedy, usually stupid, and inured to thinking about the future or others in any way that doesn;t boil down to "MINE!"

So ^%$# them. Mankind is just too dumb to live up to its potential.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You're...

Preaching to the choir.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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RE the 'burbs

I can see your point, but I think you're making a key assumption that may not hold up. Saying "mass transit is the answer" might not really address the whole problem. Some cities are just not designed so that mass transit in any form would be anything but marginally effective. It can help, but it won't make that much of a difference. Houston and LA come to mind...how do you develop a mass transit system that adequately services widely distributed work and residential points in an area of 600 square miles and growing?

What is also likely to happen is that instead of people moving into the cities, the employers may move out to the 'burbs. Or, jobs may need to change radically so that more and more of service workers can work at home instead of in a cubicle. Or, employees will demand higher wages to offset travel costs, so businesses will push those costs on to their customers.

I myself like the "everybody works from home" option. Driving to work wastes gas and time.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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telecommuting

It'd be nice to see a lot more telecommuting, but obviously a lot of jobs it is just inapplicable.

As far as higher prices...

well it's a lot easier for employers to screw their employees than their customers right now, and especially if people are constrained from finding more work due to transportation costs.

Hello serfdom.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Cities will have to contract

I thought I addressed that. Perhaps in my mind I did, but I didn't write it down.

Cities that are too big, like LA, will simply have to contract in size since they too weren't designed with mass transit in mind. As I said, anything west of the Mississippi pretty much wasn't.

I think Cleveland might make a resurgence (currently it's the poorest large city in the US) because they have trains (1 heavy, 2 light rail). Buses can only do so much if they run on diesel. Now the electric trolleys in Dayton that I used to ride run off the electric grid and, I think, could be extended quite easily. All that takes is running more electrical lines over the roads into the closest suburbs.

Everybody works from home is a great idea, but you'd better believe that employers are going to demand cameras in their employees' homes in order to keep an eye on them. In short, it won't happen anytime soon.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Last I checked

Oregon was west of the mississippi and all our cities (All three!) have pretty good mass tranist. In Eugene and Salem you're looking at buses and in Portland you've got bus and light rail plus a city center streetcar (although that's more of a touristy thing than a real people mover).

Granted we're a bit of an anomaly. California mass transit mostly sucks (the BART is kind of cool but trivial given the number of people in the bay area and the area they are spread over). Washington doesn't seem much better although i haven't been there enough to say for sure.

Buses aren't in the bible so they are illegal in jeebusland. But really, who cares? The less the mouth breathers are allowed to get around the better for all concerned, eh? They can continue marrying cousins and throwing square dances in the back yard (do trailers technically have "yards"?) and the rest of us are spared dealing with them.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Is this really theyway you think?

Or is this just some parody I'm too sleep deprived to understand?
"Buses aren't in the bible so they are illegal in jeebusland. But really, who cares? The less the mouth breathers are allowed to get around the better for all concerned, eh? They can continue marrying cousins and throwing square dances in the back yard (do trailers technically have "yards"?) and the rest of us are spared dealing with them."

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Not really

It's about half teasing and half shitty week at work getting vented.

Although I do enjoy needling the south.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Pretty much

I used a qualifier, so I beat you on a technicality. Eat that!

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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As the resident Obama apologist,

I'm required to point out that there were some differences between the situation in Illinois and on a federal level (see here , updates 2 and 3).

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Do you have any credible sources you can link to?

(Just kidding, of course, except about the dkos links being considered uncredible ...)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Interesting.

I was thinking about this the other day and considered posting something related. I was going to suggest that we pass "Windfall Gas Tax Rebates" patterned after the "Windfall Profits Tax" but in reverse. :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Yeah, but it's a flat amount, not a percentage,

and the amount isn't even indexed to inflation.

It's been 18.4 cents/gallon since 1993.

Probably when prices go up significantly the government gets slightly less because consumption is slightly reduced.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Overstating the case

I agree that the gass tax holiday is pretty worthless. That said it is the kind of thing you always get from politicians in election years because it plays to the crowd.

John McCain has introduced legislation to the Senate to temporarily eliminate the federal gas tax. Hillary Clinton was quick to jump out in support of this “Gas Tax Holiday.” I thought her opinion was that Republicans don’t have any good ideas? Well, if she sees this as an example of a Republican good idea, then her judgment is even worse than I expected.

This is a pretty severe overstatement. There's a very simple reason politicians do this kind of thing in election years: it works. More to the point, if you don;t go along your opponent has a nice handy club with which to beat you up. Witness:

HOW TO HELP LOW-INCOME AMERICANS
McCain: Obama's insensitive to the poor
GOP candidate cites rival's opposition to suspension of fuel tax
RASHA MADKOUR
Associated Press

CORAL GABLES, Fla. --Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Sunday called Democratic rival Barack Obama insensitive to poor people and out of touch on economic issues.

The presumed GOP nominee rapped his Democratic rival for opposing his idea to suspend the tax on fuel during the summer, a proposal that McCain believes will particularly help low-income people who usually have older cars that guzzle more gas.

"I noticed again today that Sen. Obama repeated his opposition to giving low-income Americans a tax break, a little bit of relief so they can travel a little further and a little longer, and maybe have a little bit of money left over to enjoy some other things in their lives," McCain said. "Obviously Sen. Obama does not understand that this would be a nice thing for Americans, and the special interests should not be dictating this policy."

AP quoted at Redstate

So the price of not supporting a stupid but essentially meaningless feel good policy is that he's given the GOP an issue for them to appear to be populists upon. Not only that but they get to continue painting him as a hypocrite because he had in fact voted for a similar (if not identical) measure in Illinois.

That's a tactical blunder, done for the right reasons, but nonetheless a blunder. You take unpopular stands on important issues, not trivialities. Not if you want to survive as a politician.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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The press is naturally lazy

but they can quote or paraphrase economists as well as candidates. Here is Reuters today, one of the top stories on Yahoo: "Clinton-McCain gas tax holiday slammed as bad idea"

Economists said that since refineries cannot increase their supply of gasoline in the space of a few summer months, lower prices will just boost demand and the benefits will flow to oil companies, not consumers. [...] Economists also saw it is a poor way of getting money to the households that need it most and warned that it might end up in the cash tills of the oil companies.

People can smell pandering. This won't help McCain, who already has a reputation for being clueless when it comes to the economy.

If the Dems as a united front criticized his proposal and said it illustrates how bankrupt of ideas and common sense his campaign really is, he'd be on the defensive every time the issue came up.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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You have substantially more faith in people

than I do.

Ask yourself this- which candidates so far have done the best in their respective nominations? The ones that have pandered or the ones that haven't?

People can smell pandering and they generally love it. McCain has pandered to the religions right. Clinton's pandered to women. Obama's pandered to the youth. I wish it didn't, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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We'll see

Well, what you call my overstatement was immediately put into perspective by the next line: "

Whether this is a tactical blunder on Obama's part remains to be seen. It pretty much falls in line with one of his over-arching messages: stop with the bulls**t. A quote from Dean Baker , co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, DC.:

If Senator Clinton is able to use this proposal to draw a contrast with
Senator Obama in expressing concern for middle-class families it could
only be attributable to the extraordinary incompetence of the reporters
who are covering the campaign.

Now, I am under no illusions that said reporters are not extraordinarily incompetent, but Obama generally does a decent job explaining his positions, so I have some hope that this could work out in his favor. It certainly has improved my respect for him. We'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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And we begin to see...

AP NewsBreak: Former Democratic leader switches to Obama

Joe Andrew, DNC Chairman 1999-2001, has switched his allegiance to Barack Obama and is encouraging fellow Democrats to unite behind the Illinois senator.

Andrew said the Obama campaign never asked him to switch his support,
but he decided to do so after watching Obama's handling of two issues
in recent days. He said Obama took the principled stand in opposing a
summer gas tax holiday that both Clinton and McCain supported, even
though it would have been easier politically to back it.

Perhaps it was a tactical mistake on Clinton's part to pander to the voters, when at this point it is the superdelegates that really matter?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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When it comes to politics

I always bet on opportunism, not principle, carrying the day. I strongly suspect that Mr. Andrew is also making a tactical blunder here.

consider this from kevin drum:

At this point, Republicans just don't have many policies to offer that people like. Healthcare? The GOP basically wants to make it less secure. Jobs? Um, free trade, anyone? Taxes? That's always a crowd pleaser, but the only taxes left to cut are those aimed at corporations and the rich. Housing? The free market will take care of things. The war? Iraq forever!

So that leaves trivia like gas tax holidays and culture war attacks on Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright. The more they talk about anything else, the less popular they get. So tell me: outside of the usual cultural warhorse issues (which McCain isn't very good at exploiting anyway), can you name a single major area of public concern today in which the Republican position is also popular with the public? Anybody?

Emphasis added. The gas tax holiday is meant to be a distraction. It's bait. The GOP hangs out there a meaningless bit of fluff in the hopes that the dems are foolish enough to make it an actual issue. Why? Because then everyone is talking about it, and not healthcare, or Iraq or the things that matter where the GOP is utterly clueless.

The proper respose is "yeah, sure, gas holiday. Now about health care..." You neutralize the issue (which will quite possibly never be enacted anyway) by simply accepting it. You can do this because while it is not a good idea it is pretty trivial, which means even if enacted the damage in minimal. Meantime you starve the issue of any oxygen and get back to important stuff.

Or you vigorously contest the issue, as Obama has, on (correct) principles. In that case the next several weeks are filled with stories that make the GOP look like the good guys and the dems appear miserly and mean. Congratulations!

I'm not saying there's never a time to sacrifice pragmatism for principle- there are times when that's the right thing absolutely- but you have to take into account the ROI.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You are so cynical! :)

But at least I am not the only one who disagrees with you on this:

How to Beat Gas Tax Demagoguery lists 4 reasons why this issue is a winner for Obama. 

Since you are primarily talking about the general election, here is point #4:

4. It lets him tie McCain to Clinton. McCain's biggest asset is his
reputation as a truth-teller. By pandering on an issue where the whole
news media knows he's wrong, McCain is squandering his most precious
asset. So Obama hammering this issue now will pay dividends in the
general election.

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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The populist outcry

McCain/Clinton on the gas tax equals a panderfest.

Haven't we had enough...... pandering?

Or are people so naive that they hear 'tax cut' and go brain dead.

It is the economy, stupid.

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It's the latter.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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yes it is

Tax cuts always win. Why pay now if you can make your kids pay later.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I win twice!

I don't (and most likely will never) have kids!

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Is Obama electable?

"Yes! Yes! Yes!"

Hillary Clinton in her own words.

Was Clinton also pandering in this instance.

It is the economy, stupid.

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BTW

you previously argued that because the right was eager to face Hillary over Obama that meant that he was more electable. It may interest you to know that there is a strong movement on the right to now want to face Obama.

I still maintain that this doesn't mean anything one way or another because the same people making these calls tend to be very out of touch with the american public, but it might interest you.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Obviously damage has been done

It's so great when we see our heroes fail. Who needs em.

Only Hillary can save us from ourselves.

It's so great that we let fear of the right and it's attacks dictate our leaders.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Remeber which of us is which, here

I've consistently argued that we should ignore who the right "wants" us to run.

You were the one who argued it was valid when it suited you, and now that it doesn't you sarcastically say "It's so great that we let fear of the right and it's attacks dictate our leaders."

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I stand corrected

thanks for pointing out the inconsistencies!

You of course are right as usual.

I am not one to be swayed by logic obviously.

(It is this sort of logic that got us into Iraq. Where you know someone is saying that black is white. It's logical. Therefore we should attack Iraq.)

I feel the same disconnect going on now.

I am more into 'truthiness'.

It is the economy, stupid.

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gas tax holiday is horrendous

This gimmick has convinced me that neither McCain nor Clinton should be allowed to have any power... it may seem amazing, but I really detest them for their position on this issue.

First, it just illustrates their complete contempt for the American people. It is pure pandering (i.e. it will never be enacted) yet they act as though it is important.

Second, if they seriously like the idea, it illustrates their complete lack of understanding of economics, indicating that they should have no say over economic policy. I applaud Obama and everyone who criticizes this BS for making an effort to educate Americans about basic economics (and oil economics in particular). While this issue may be unimportant, economics is important.

As a tactical note, I think Obama can gain/solidify support if we take this opportunity to educate people about economics...especially if we have all summer to draw distinctions between Obama and McCain, and demonstrate how "straight talk McCain" is just another two-faced politician who has no sense of what is good economic policy.

Third, this idea illustrates a lack of respect for the rule of law. McCain and Clinton want to make an arbitrary and temporary change to the tax code. This type of behavior makes it impossible for Americans to plan their lives/businesses, and it will provide windfall profits to a select group of Americans who are in a position to benefit from this arbitrary change. In other words, markets will never approach equilibrium and gasoline companies will make a killing.

Fourth, Hillary's plan to levy a "windfall profits" tax makes it even worse. Superficially, it plugs the revenues hole in McCain's plan, but it is again an arbitrary law. Combined with the gas tax rebate, it means that the profits of gasoline companies will be completely determined by politicians: the politicians will give or take billions of dollars from those corporations based on whatever standard the politicians choose. This is how Putin runs Russia, and I'll be damned if America is to be run this way. 

Fifth, this gas tax holiday would act as a bail-out to any speculators out there, even as Clinton is bitching about "oil speculation " (though I don't buy it), but . This is because speculative bubbles collapse when speculators realize that no-one is willing to buy their hoard at profitable prices. Clinton/McCain's tax holiday would assure speculators that there will be a surge in demand during the summer, so that they can continue buying and selling oil at inflated prices with little risk of the bubble bursting on them.

Finally, since production cannot be ramped up in such a short time-frame, the only way that this tax holiday could reduce consumer prices is by drawing in additional supplies from elsewhere (the global market or speculative stockpiles).  

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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Obviously

a longer look says this is a stupid idea.

Clinton/McCain are offering up one more issue for bitter voters to cling to.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Spiritual Lefty, You write:

Spiritual Lefty,

You write: "So why is it a bad idea? Well, the obvious reason to me, an environmentalist, is that lowering the price of gasoline will encourage increased usage"

You then quote economists saying essentially that the retail price of gas won't be lowered by eliminating the tax.

1) Isn't this a contradiction -- mutually exclusive scenarios? Don't you have to pick only one of these scenarios: either the retail price going down or not?

2) Do you advocate RAISING the gas tax now? If so, any idea how much?

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Possibly

1) Possibly a contradiction, I suppose. You could say it either works as advertised, and is bad for the environment, or it does not, and is a harmless feel-good gesture. The general impression I get is that it would be a little bit of the worst of both worlds, however – a little decrease that might save people a few bucks initially, but which will soon enough mostly just be extra profit for the producers. So people will be left with a psychological feeling ("hey, it's cheaper than it is supposed to be because there is no tax") and purchase and use accordingly, but won't really be saving any money.

2) Specifically raising the gas tax? Not particularly, although I would not object. I am very much in favor of a carbon tax, or at the very least a cap-and-trade CO2 emissions system. I honestly haven't thought much about specific numbers for such a tax. Obviously either of these strategies would result in increased prices of gasoline, home heating oil, and many other products (putting them more in line with their actual costs, IMHO).

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Additionally

I would say the specifics of Clinton's plan lend itself more toward a quick readjustment back to higher prices, since the oil companies are going to pass on the extra tax she wants to assess on them. So no real benefit for anyone, yet probably increased consumption for the psychological reasons mentioned above. McCain's plan might result in a slower readjustment to higher prices, but in the end is ridiculously fiscally irresponsible, amounting to nothing more than a transfer of wealth from the government to the oil companies and oil producers. And will result in increased consumption.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I agree with your criticisms

I agree with your criticisms of Clinton's/McCain's proposals for a gas tax holiday.

But just to be a pain in the a**, here's why I asked you if you'd like to INCREASE the gas tax. If you don't advocate INCREASING the gas tax, but you oppose lowering it, wouldn't you have to assert that the current tax rate, 18.4 cents/gallon, is, for some odd reason, ideal? I realize you think other forms of taxation would be preferable to raising the gas tax specifically, but setting that aside for the moment -- assuming just hypothetically that imposing those other types of taxes is not an option and the choice is raising the gas tax or not -- would you then favor increasing the gas tax?

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Yes.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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well that's no fun.

well that's no fun. Contradict yourself, damnit! Give me something to work with!

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BR and SL,

funny you guys are having this exchange about optimal carbon taxes.

So are others .

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Saying the gas price is not too high, is too simplistic

My hometown has a population of four thousand people, and I would say its about 60 miles from any town over 1,000 people. If you go further north you get to little villages of 100 people that are even more isolated. So you have places where people are having to travel 30 Miles or more just to do grocery shoping. For many functions ( church...) They have to travel 60 or 70 miles. Also of course most of these people are Ranchers, so its not practical to be buying little economical cars. So personally I think its rather insensity to the poor rural people to tell them to just use less gas. While, I haven't made up my mind about the gas tax, I'm against raising taxes just for the sake of raising prices.

…………

This may sound even more insensitive

...but if they are ranchers, they need to raise the price of meat. Because that is unrealistically low-priced as well.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Taxation for the purpose of

Taxation for the purpose of covering what economists call "externalities" (societal costs not captured in the market price) is legitimate and often desirable. In the case of gas, externalities include climate change, affect on the pace of development of alternative energies, even part of our Defense budget (we could spend less on Defense if we weren't so dependent on oil, which means Persion Gulf oil), so a gas tax to compensate for those externalities seems appropriate and desirable to me.

As an analogy, if smoking led to higher costs for taxpayers (e.g., due to cancer treatment), it would be appropriate to tax cigarettes to cover that additional cost. It so happens that heavy smokers actually SAVE taxpayers money by dying earlier, but my illustration is hypothetical.

As with much of public policy, some suffer disproportionately, through no fault of their own, so that most people can benefit. We should do our best to help such people, but we have to weigh the interests of the few against the interests of the many (and I DON'T mean to suggest that the interests of the many should always win; matters of degree of harm/benefit and matters of merit vs. compassion are factors)

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Theoretically that may be

but practically speaking I don't see how our rural economies can sustain, the ever increasing prices. I guess you will probably see higher food prices, but It's probably not like they haven't thought of that, and I know it seemed people were hurting from the high gas prices when it was only like $2.00 or so, so I really don't know if we can sustain ever increasing prices.

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I don't see why there is

I don't see why there is necessarily a difference between theory and practice. I do see trade-offs in both theory and in paractice. I see some people being worse off and a much larger number of people being better off.

And I think there could be practical ways to at least partially compensate those who suffer (for example, a lower tax in rural areas or generally rural states, perhaps decreasing gradually over a few different levels geographically to minimize the extent to which people drive across borders to get gas). I'm no expert in how that could be done, but it certainly seems plausible.

Or was your theory vs. practice a response to Spiritual Lefty's comment?

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What I'm saying is maybe the farmers in theory should

pay for the price of Global Warming... because they're causing it by their consumption ( this seems to be sort of what you're saying), but I'm saying whethe the Farmer's are causing all the problems of gas consumption or not, they don't have the money to pay for it, and its not practical to hike the price of gas up to where they're suffering because of it.

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The "price of meat" point

The "price of meat" point was from Spiritual Lefty, not me.

What I've said is that, as a matter of public policy for at least most of the nation, a gas tax to account for externalities is a good idea. If it is either in our collective interest to partially or completely exempt farmers from that tax, or if there is a sufficiently strong hardship argument, than that should be incorporated into a gas tax policy.

Having said that, as I said from the start, often public policy that is good for most of us harms a smaller number of people. That can usually be compensated for to at least some degree, but it's not always desirable to do so, considering everyone's interests.

It may be that a higher gas tax, even with some adjustments to help those particularly vulnerable (if that's desirable), puts some farmers out of business. I really don't know much about it. That doesn't, in itself, mean it would be bad policy.

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I don't how much of a gas tax you want

But just from personal experience I don't see how we raise it too high without serious disruption. As far as having a tax for others and exempting rural areas I'm not totally opposed, but again I think with a tax like this that is totally flat you can put an undue burden on the poor.

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I'm not informed nearly well

I'm not informed nearly well enough to know what the ideal gas tax would be, all things considered, or what the broader policy should be (e.g., ways to help those who are disproportionately adversely affected, if desirable). That's why I can only make general points as I've been doing.

It's kind of like with free trade. Some folks definitely get hurt. My sense, though, is that overall it's good for the vast majority of people, and that that benefit outweighs the harm to some. I also think we should try to help those folks (e.g., education/re-training, unemployment benefits, etc.)

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I'm with you on foreign trade

and maybe the gas tax too, only I'm hesitant to have a tax that disportionatelly hurts the poor - not that the gas tax does I just see that potential.

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yes, anything that raises

yes, anything that raises prices on necessities disproportionately hurts the poor. The poor spend a much higher portion of their income/wealth on necessities, almost by definition. The tax code, transfer payment programs, etc. can potentially adjust for that (e.g., increasing food stamp dollar amounts or the tax rates on the working poor or increasing the EITC) or perhaps something more targeted to the cause of the harmful effect on them, but of course that doesn't always happen (and in some cases, it shouldn't).

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Also I think Ameirca has an interest in perserving

the Rural American way of life even if they don't have an economic interest in it.

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As with everything, there

As with everything, there are no absolutes; it's a matter of weighing benefits vs. costs and risks. And certainly benefits, costs and risks are not limited to those of the financial/economic nature.

I remember when I was a kid my family shopped at the local mom & pop store for groceries all the time. We were friendly with the family that owned and worked there (mom, pop, uncles, kids). Not friends, but friendly in the kind old-fashioned small town way. Everyone in town was that way. It was what we'd now call "quaint". It was definitely nice. Warm smiles. "How are the kids?" kinda stuff. Then a big chain grocery store arrived, then another, then another. Much better selection. Much better prices. Needless to say, that mom & pop store went out of business. I guess the town or the state or the federal government could have subsidized that mom & pop store or banned the large chain stores from town and preserved that traditional, nice, cultural element of that mom & pop store, and such a policy could have been put in place all across the nation for the same reason. I think it's a good thing it wasn't, though, all things considered.

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Its one thing to ask government to get involved

in protecting something ( subsidizing the store) its another thing for the governemnt to be involved in destroying things - hiking gas prices.

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Protecting one thing

invariably involves destroying another, c.f. opportunity costs.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Again, if the purpose of a

Again, if the purpose of a tax is to capture externalities (costs to society that are not captured by the market price) it's just society (via the government) asking consumers to compensate society for that harm done by their consumption, and discouraging them from causing that harm.

The point I was making was in response to your point that when deciding upon gas tax policy, we should seek to "preserve the Rural American way of life" even if doing so runs contrary to our overall economic interests. I was just pointing out that preserving such traditions or elements of our culture are indeed nice, but often the economic / standard of living / quality of life benefits for the vast majority of Americans should win out over the benefit of such preservation.

We should wrap up soon, at least for tonight. See the email I just sent you.

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Exemptions

FWIW, I have no problem with exemptions or what have you for those who are hit unduly hard by increasing gas prices. Not sure that a blanket "farmer exemption" wouldn't be susceptible to massive abuse, though. There's got to be some way to handle this, but I certainly don't claim to have all the answers.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I get you

Yeah, being from a semi-rural area myself, I am a bit torn over gas prices. Demand needs to be reduced so that we can move to better alternatives, but when people live 30 min. from the nearest grocery store, they can't demand less gas than what they are now.

Tax breaks for those who live in BFE would be in order, I'd think.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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My two cents here:

Part of the reason that gas prices are skyrocketing now is due to the demand. If people weren't so insistant on speeding along, well above the speed limit, much gasoline could be saved, therefore reducing the demand and lowering the prices somewhat.

When I drive, I 'm more conservative and by the book, so to speak. I observe the speed limits whenever possible, much to the irritation of lots of other drivers on the roads. hehe.

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Re: "I observe the speed

Re: "I observe the speed limits whenever possible, much to the irritation of lots of other drivers on the roads."

If you "drive 55" on the highway, that's admirable, but stay the hell out of the left lane so us less responsible, more selfish folks can get by :-p

By the way, George Carlin has a good bit in which he says that everyone thinks that anyone who drives slower than you is an "idiot", and anyone who drives faster than you is a "maniac", as in "Oh man, I can't believe I'm stuck behind this idiot. Whoa! Man, did you see that MANIAC go by?!"

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I do much the same

but only because I can't afford a speeding ticket or the subsequent insurance premium increase. I'm not sure where you're from but here in Ohio, we've got some of the stingiest cops when it comes to getting ticketed. I had a friend who once got cited for 59 in a 55. Compare that to anecdotal stories of friends going 80mph in parts of the deep south and being the slowest car on the road.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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A couple of decades ago I

A couple of decades ago I got pulled over. The cop said "We clocked you by helicopter doin' 78". I thought to myself "Geez, helicopter? Am I that important?"

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Thanks for the diary and the two links, Spiritual Lefty.

I read the diary and the links with much interest and enjoyment, and, much of it really does ring true. Happily, I live in an urban area, where I'm in walking and/or biking distance from downtown Boston and Cambridge's Harvard Square area. If I'm itching to go somewhere and crappy winter weather hits, the MBTA stations are pretty near.

Yet, there are instances for which I'm grateful for having a fuel-efficient hybrid car:

A) Doing a large grocery shopping

B) Replacing the acetylene tank for my torch (I'm a silversmith) when the acetylene in the tank goes low. (I can't carry the tank on public transportation for obvious reasons)

C) If I'm going somplace downtown in the evening and know that I'll be coming back very late at night. I drive to the MBTA station, park nearby and then take the train into town.

D) I drive out to the country on weekends in good weather to bike long distances, park, ride around for an hour or two, then head for home.

E) I've driven out of state for special events and make annual roadtrip/pilgramages to the midwest to visit relatives.

All that not withstanding, however, I try to walk, bike and/or use public transportation whenever possible.

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Caplan shills for Hillary on the gas tax

because nobody else will....

So tries to find an economic argument for it .

Not bad. But it's more of a political economy or public choice argument than a strictly economic argument.

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The arguments seem to be:

The arguments seem to be:

It won't do as much harm as worse policies that might be less likely to be adopted if we make the dummies think we're doing something to help them.

If suppliers see us fooling the dummies to prevent those worse policies, they might be more likely to expand supply, which would help mitigate the problem a bit.

Is that how you read it, too?