RKBA victory on the horizon?
The Supreme Court recently heard a challenge to the DC handgun ban in a case that has the potential to definitively clarify the Second Amendment , which states:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
There has been a long-standing debate between gun rights activists and gun control advocates as to whether this describes an individual right or whether it applies only in the context of a regulated militia. The ruling is not expected until June, but based on questioning before the Court, it appears likely that a majority of Justices will rule that the DC ban is unconstitutional.
From the LA Times :
Five of the justices, a bare majority, signaled that they thought the amendment gave individuals a right to have a gun for self-defense. It was not limited to arms for "a well-regulated militia," they said.
By adopting that view, the justices are likely to strike down the nation's strictest gun control law, a ban on handguns in the District of Columbia.
The only real judicial precedent is United States v. Miller , a case in which the Court ruled that it was acceptable to require registration of certain weapons. The registration in question involved a tax that was ostensibly aimed at generating revenue but was probably actually geared towards decreasing ownership of such weapons. The Court reasoned that since a short-barreled shotgun did not have some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. On the other hand, they also clarified what was meant by "Militia" to be all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense... these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.
Two points on which I believe we can say that a consensus is developing in this debate: (1) The reference to "arms" should be interpreted in the context of ordinary weaponry and does not extend to specialized military equipment such as could not have been envisioned at the time the amendment was drafted. Thus, granting the right to possess guns does not mean the state may not regulate or prohibit, for example, the private ownership of surface-to-air missiles (to take a deliberately extreme example). Since there is no overriding general principle on which to ground a differentiation between what is covered by the Second and what is not (the language of Miller is somewhat vague), we are reduced to quarreling over specifics -- but at least we can agree that some regulation of private weaponry is constitutional. (2) The reference to "Militia" should be interpreted as applying to anyone who could participate in military defense -- ie, pretty much everyone (but not criminals, or the underage, etc; even the NRA agrees with some limitations). Even ignoring the expansive definition, it is possible to read the amendment as an introduction (describing Militias) and then a statement of an individual RKBA. As the likely swing-vote in the current case, Kennedy, put it: In my view . . . there's a general right to bear arms quite without reference to the militia. There will still be debate around the margins -- for example, what sort of background checks are acceptable? However, after the expected ruling the legal interpretation will be squarely in line with an individual right.
The main point of disagreement is what sort of response is "proportional" and acceptable. Here the liberal Justices argue that the DC ban is a necessary response to gun violence; Breyer asked In the District, I guess the number is somewhere around 200 to 300 dead and maybe 1,500 to 2,000 wounded. Now, in light of that, why isn't a ban on handguns, while allowing the use of rifles and muskets, a reasonable or proportionate response on behalf of the District of Columbia? Of course the implicit assumption here is that the ban would reduce the level of gun violence, and that's actually not at all clear either way. Because there's no way to compare DC as it is to DC as it would have been absent the ban, you need to look at "similar" cities in terms of crime rates, poverty levels, drug trafficking, and so on, which is not an easy thing to do even when unburdened by an ideological perspective and which lends itself nicely to (sometimes deliberate) cherry-picking in service of a political agenda. Here is one assessment of results in DC:
the gun culture on the city's mean streets during the crack epidemic has not abated, police statistics show. Even as the homicide toll declined in D.C. after 1991, the percentage of killings committed with firearms remained far higher than it was when the ban was passed. Guns were used in 63 percent of the city's 188 slayings in 1976. Last year, out of 169 homicides, 81 percent were shootings.
Meanwhile, periodic ATF reports have documented that firearms, flowing in from elsewhere in the country, remain available on D.C. streets - exactly what the ban was designed to prevent.
To be fair, as the article notes, at the time the ban was passed it was hoped that neighboring regions would follow suit, increasing the effectiveness of the policy by making it more difficult for an underground traffic in guns to develop.
While the Justices have no real legal reason to consider the success (or lack thereof) of the DC ban in making their ruling, one suspects that at least some of them would have been responsive to significant results either way and would have at least tailored the scope of their decision to match what seemed to work on the ground. Lacking conclusive evidence of the effectiveness of the ban, a majority of the Justices seem prepared to rule that DC has gone too far. As Chief Justice Roberts put it:What is reasonable about a total ban on possession?
An interesting side-note as regards the Democratic Presidential primary: one of the (admittedly few) Senate votes with Clinton and Obama on opposing sides was the Vitter Amendment which proposed To prohibit the confiscation of a firearm during an emergency or major disaster if the possession of such firearm is not prohibited under Federal or State law. Obama voted Yea with the majority, Clinton voted Nay with 15 other Democrats.

Comments :
The only way they are going to get my missle launcher is
when they pry it from my cold dead hands.....
Honestly, I think the original thought was two differing ideals. back in the day, the common man was expected to be part of a local militia and he was expected to have his own guns.
Also we must remember that in the original colonies, most of the land was wild. The Urban area's were very small and it was recognised that anyone out in the "frontier" needed to be able to protect themselves, their family and their homestead from those that would do them harm.
I figure the framers of the Constitution wanted both these groups (who were oftentimes the very same people) to have arms but wanted some perspectives put on it so they used the "well regulated militia" clause we are all now familiar with to hint that government does have the power to regulate weapons.
However....and this is a big however, the genie was out of the bottle for a couple of centuries. In the course of that period of time, generations came & went and a mind set of no control developed unhindered. So now we have what we have.
Clearly if limits want to be placed by the Federal government, they can. I can understand that individual states may also be able to place limits. But both those groups have to pass laws to do so and with current political climates, that hasn't been an easy thing to do.
Good comment
The "well regulated" part might be more crucial than most people credit.
Completely agree with your characterization of the original colonies versus today.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I think the better argument
is whether the government has any control over what falls under the definition of arms.
Pretty clearly I think it does. People who argue the 2nd amendment gives them a right to antiaircraft missiles and the like are rightly regarded as nuts.
If that is the case then there is no reason the government can't put handguns and rifles on the "no" side of the line.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
That's a slippery slope
I don't think so. The government shouldn't be allowed to redefine words in the Constitution as that is a way of back door amendment. I'm not ready to allow Congress the ability to redefine the meaning of the freedom of speech provision in the 1st amendment to mean only speech that is made by a bonded and licensed "speech practitioner".
No one with any serious reading of the Constitution would agree with that assessment.
An originalist looks at the original intent, which would ostensibly include any weapon that could be easily transported by person. AFAIK, the only real arms at the time were either muskets or one-shot pistol-type weapons. The Constitution is sorely lacking in keeping up with the times to define "arms" for us.
The strict constructionist would take arms to be anything they had at the time the constitution was written, and the liberal view would be to define arms as broadly as possible for maximization of rights.
Of course everything is backwards here. The liberals and conservatives will end up using each other's jurisprudence to come to their decision.
If the 2nd amendment is to be read under strict scrutiny, I wouldn't think that a ban on simple revolvers or semi-automatic handguns would be reasonable. The line between rifles and handguns is pretty arbitrary, and even then, I don't know that such a ban even works to reduce gun violence. If you're thinking about shooting someone, you're not going to be deterred by any gun ban. If you could prove conclusively that the ban reduces violence, then I might give the argument credence, but such proof is incredibly hard to produce.
A DKos member made the case that such bans end up hurting black populations disproportionately because black neighborhoods have disproportionately more gun crime (especially in DC), and in order for one to be reasonably safe, one would need to be carrying a handgun.
I think if you assume your premise, you're absolutely right. But as I said before I take issue because then Congress can just define rights out of existence. Would you be comfortable if Congress defined probable cause to mean that the police had a gut feeling?
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Reminded me of a Quote
"You're playing god!"
"Well somebody has to!"
-Man with Two Brains
Somebody has to define what it means by "Arms." The term is not explicit. So who gets to do it? The NRA? Isn;t the government the obvious choice? And if we don't like how they do it we pass an amendment to make it explicit.
We already gave them that power- libel and slander are not protected forms of speech. Neither can you claim first amendment rights to say things that actively endanger others (the yelling fire in a theater concept). Meanwhile the SCOTUS has allowed money contributed to political campaigns to be treated as a form of speech.
So government is already involved in defining what exactly is and is not speech. Again if we don't like how they do it then let's replace "speech" with something definitive through an amendment.
An originalist might alternatively say that the original intent was to allow citizens to own the highest tech military weapons available- because at the time muskets were in fact the best weapons available. There was no disparity between military grade weapons and small arms.
Based on what? What criteria are you using for "strict scrutiny"?
Getting rid of guns doesn't decrease the incidence of violence, that's true. What it does is decrease the severity of violence. If you really want to attack someone you will with whatever weapon you can get, but if that weapon is a taser or a knife there's a lot better chance you'll wound rather than kill. Additionally if you flip out and decide to go kill everyone in a McDonalds you are a lot less likely to succeed with a steak knife than with a couple uzis. You might kill a couple people but likely not thirty.
That;s circular and self defeating. Why not just give the people in high crime neighborhoods all assault rifles? Well because the criminals will have them too. You have to accept that the population of criminals will ALWAYS have at least the same level of arms as the general population. The key then is to reduce the level of weapons everywhere.
Personally I look forward to drive-by tazings. That sounds pretty damn sweet compared to the alternative.
It;s not like these nebulous terms have hard concrete meanings in the first place. Their definitions come into existence as a combination of general consensus and court ruling. Without someone to give definitions to the poetic language of the BoR none of these rights exist anyway- they're just words on a page.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Congress might want to seriously consider
an amendment to clarify the Second. A legislative battle to hammer out a compromise that would be acceptable to everyone and that would articulate a clear principle that could hold under the development of foreseeable technological increases would be better, IMHO, than depending on SCOTUS to parse what is clearly obsolete language.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
It would be a spectacular political fight
if nothing else...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
No argument from me
I think it's something that should be handled by the states, although I think the 9th protects a basic right to self defense.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Bah, humbug.
I can kill just as many people with my car driving down a crowded sidewalk, or through the wall of the McDonalds.
Car plows through market, killing 9
Infant 10th fatality in farmers' market crash
And this guy wasn't even trying to kill anyone.
No Jail For Elderly Driver In Market Crash
And if you use a car you don't even go to jail.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
SCOTUS, not Congress decides
The term "arms" should mean whatever it meant in 1791. Dictionaries from the era still exist, and we should use them.
I believe the disagreement hinges on which branch gets to interpret the meaning of the words in the Constitution. This would seem to be very obviously in the purview of the judiciary, rather than the legislature. Your confusion between the two makes it hard for me to fully address your concerns. Slander and libel, which are abuses of rights, were never meant to be protected under the 1st amendment. And then, I don't have a problem in theory with the SCOTUS deciding that money is a form of protected speech based on their interpretation of the Constitution, although I may disagree with their ruling. They are the correct branch to deal with that question. If their decision is obviously flawed, Congress may impeach judges and pass amendments to overrule such decisions.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Why?
Why "should" it mean what it meant then? Serious question. As I see it the term "should" be interpreted however the hell people today decide it should be. It's our country. The founding fathers are dead to a man, and frankly while a pretty bright group they were not infallible. The made some huge errors which we've had to correct over time.
I don't see why you think I'm confused, I simply don't agree that this is exclusively the realm of the judiciary. It involves all three branches. Congress righting laws that affect the second, the courts evaluating those laws, and the executive enforcing them.
"Meant" is such a tricky word, particularly as it does not appear in the amendment itself. Who "meant" it and why do we care what they meant?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Final words
They did. Let's correct any perceived errors by amendment, as we did with the big misstep of slavery. Until then, the Constitution is what it is, for better or for worse.
If Congress can redefine the words in the Constitution, then the document is effectively meaningless. In practice, the only rights we'd have were the ones that Congress decided we could have.
Now I have to go to work...
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
+4
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Wow
A +4 from GR? I'm putting this on my fridge.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Redfined means a definition existed in the first place.
What the constitution (actually Bill of Rights) is is vague. Hence the issue. The second amendment is no where near concrete. The terms "arms" and "bear" are both open to various interpretations. The militia clause makes the entire intent murky. Hence saying "it is what it is" doesn't help since we can't agree what exactly it is in the first place.
Again- someone has to define them in the first place. Who is that going to be? You want to use 18th century definitions? Why? Because that's what it meant when it was written? Okay, but the world in no way resembles that. In that case your right to free speech doesn't extend to things like the telephone, email, message boards, et cetera.
Seems to make a lot more sense to let the constitution adapt to modern life rather than requiring us to pass a new amendment every time someone invents something like a blackberry.
Again if the way government interprets the vague terms bothers us we can pass an amendment to replace the vague words with concrete ones. Until we do government can and should adapt to modern circumstances rather than keep us tied to flawed historical perspectives.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
from stinerman: The term
from stinerman:
from Tlaloc:
I plead the 4th.
Stinerman's argument can still work to protect emails.
Its in the 4th Amendent
Speaking over the telephone is still speech and there's the added protection of the 4th Amendment.
Message boards, the right of the people peaceably to assemble and also the 4th Amendment
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Is "unreasonable"
really better defined than "Arms" or "Speech"? And where do telephone email and message board conversations fall into "persons, houses, papers, and effects"?
Pretty clearly the original intent and definitions cannot cover those things at all because they were unimagined at the time. The telegraph didn't exist until 1825.
Which is why it make a great deal more sense to view the constitution as a document that adapts to the times by virtue of our changing understanding of how the language and underlying ideas contained apply to a changing world.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Unintentional Straw Man
I believe Stinerman is suggesting using Originalism, which isn't strict constructionism.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Redefinition is unconstitutional
The judiciary is generally the branch of government that interprets the laws. That's why they should interpret the Constitution as well. In fact Marbury v. Madison
set this precedent. If you want to argue that the case was wrongly decided, I'll listen to that theory.
The 18th century definitions should be used because that was when the amendment was written. It'd be foolish to use 27th century definitions for today's laws -- we'd never really know what the laws we were writing even meant. When the law is vague and hard to understand, Congress has the power to change the laws. When the Constitution is vague and hard to understand, Congress and the states have the power to change the Constitution. They cannot and should not be able to redefine or even clarify any words in the Constitution. Such an act would change the meaning of the Constitution without actually amending it. If you agree that Congress should have such power, then why even bother having amendments in the first place? Simply clarifying or redefining words in the Constitution using regular laws have the same effect, but get around that pesky 2/3 super majority and taking the law to the states to ratify.
I agree 100% that the 2nd amendment is vague and needs to be updated with more succinct language. Until that happens, the SCOTUS must read the amendment as is and without regard to any possible repercussions. Scalia speaks for me on this issue:
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says.
Redefining words in the Constitution is essentially a backdoor amendment. Since there is a clear procedure to follow to amend the Constitution, redefinition is quite obviously unconstitutional.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Agreed and well argued.....
I'll slightly veer from your point, but the post below asks if it should be easier to amend the Constitution?...
http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/03/16/should-it-be-easier-to-amend-the-constitution/
an excerpt....
Of course, changing the amendment requirements would require a change to the Constitution.
Gun Control for self defense vs...
In my not so humble opinion
What the court is looking at:
--What does the 2nd Amendment mean to the Supreme Court?:
The Supreme Court has already ruled that right to bear arms includes the right to bear arms for self defense.
To me, the DC law clearing doesn't pass the "least restrictive means" part of strict scrutiny standard.
The law was made to curtail gun crimes. Background checks are less restrictive. Next case.
The only way this DC handgun ban law can be upheld is if the Supreme Court decides to change what the 2nd Amendment means.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Self defense
doesn't automatically require a gun. A person armed with a taser is also "bearing arms for self defense." Why not make that the defacto standard? Especially seeing as the number of people accidentally killed by tasers is pretty low.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
SCOTUS considers the right
SCOTUS considers the right to bear arms for self defense as a right. The 2nd amendment isn't granting the right to defend oneself. And only allowing tasers for self defense is hardly the least restrictive means of reducing gun deaths.
Not to mention that tasers are a far worse form of self defense. A double shot taser is far worse deterrent than a double barreled shot gun.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
That's the question, isn't it?
If you're thinking about shooting someone, you're not going to be deterred by any gun ban. If you could prove conclusively that the ban reduces violence, then I might give the argument credence, but such proof is incredibly hard to produce.
If you're thinking of shooting someone, you probably already have a gun or have the means to easily procure one. It's plausible that under a blanket ban that access to guns could be limited. I think the DC experiment really suffered from a lack of similar bans in neighboring areas.
You're right about the lack of definitive studies -- it's very hard to isolate only the gun-control variable.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Speaking as a liberal, I don't trust the government.
One of the reasons that our government can't run roughshod over it's citizens is because we are a well armed populace. If we weren't so well armed, the government wouldn't hesitate to become even more totalitarian than they've even become under this administration.
They know we can put up an annoying fight, so they try to be less draconian.
Am I a conspiracy theorist? No. But I do think that an armed citizenry makes them think twice about how much control they can exert.
But that isn't why I own guns. I just like to target shoot. And I do own a few hand guns. They are even more challenging to target shoot with. Anyone can hit something with a 22 with a scope on it. Try hitting the same thing with a pistol.
"Well armed populous"
is a joke. The government can run over your ass anytime they feel like it. No matter how many hand guns, assault rifles, or shotguns you have. Ruby ridge pretty conclusively proved that in case you had any doubts. That wasn't even the military, just FBI and they still just flattened the very well armed Weavers as soon as they felt like it.
The days of the populous having guns meaning jack shit to government tyranny are well behind us.
Look at Iraq. What weapon has been far and away the most effective against our armed forces- The AK or the IED?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Apples and oranges.
Ruby Ridge is not an applicable case here, that was one family. Turn it into a true civil war where everyone is fighting and things would be different.
Hell, aren't you typically complaining about how the Iraqis seem to have fought us to a stand still? So do you have more faith in the average Iraqi or the average American in terms of having grit? I bet on the Americans.
You can try to turn the above around on me but it won't work. I believe that our forces are 100% behind their efforts in Iraq, but if they were asked to start bombing and killing people right here at home, their brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts for example, I think you might find them questioning those unlawful orders rather than fighting.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
As McCain-Feingold taught us ...
you can't trust the SCOTUS to do the right thing. It is a toss up as to which way this might go so I am just going to wait and see. Just because they asked some of the right questions doesn't mean that is a tell on where they stand.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I'm betting 6-3
Thomas, Scalia, Alito, Roberts, Kennedy, and Ginsburg in the majority with Stevens, Souter, and Breyer in the minority. Ginsburg is the only wild card here; she could go either way.
The decision is inconsequential for me because Ohio already has this right enshrined in our state Constitution.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Yea, well tell that to the city of columbus ...
the next time you stop buy and have your Colt AR-15 with you.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I hate Columbus
due to the single day I stayed downtown for a Blue Jackets game.
The public transit is both expensive and non-existent. The city sprawls out for miles and miles. And the cost of living is much higher than Cleveland, Dayton, or Toledo. Why anyone lives there other than to go to OSU or Capital is beyond me.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Lots of cheap golf courses?
Columbus has to be hard to beat if you're a budget-minded golfer.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Strict Scrutiny and guns for self defense...
I doubt anyone in Columbus will be involved in a situation where they need an assault rifle. Handguns and other rifles will do.
I might be missing the boat, I don't know what the Columbus law bans. AFAIK, the Ohio law protects the right to bear arms for self defense and to bear arms in a militia.
If one has a AR-15 because they are in a militia, I don't see how its constitutional, in Ohio, to ban AR-15's for militia members.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Well they certainly ban (unless I missed a court case or
something) assault weapons, which is just so much a bogus name as used in a non-military context (where it implies selective fire capabilities). We are talking about semi-automatic weapons here, no full auto. The AR-15 is basically a semi-auto M16. It is LESS powerful than the average deer rifle, and in fact I don't believe it would even be legal to hunt with one because it is too wimpy. But because they label it an "assault weapon" it becomes oooo-scary.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
from stinerman, the Ohio
from stinerman, the Ohio constitution says:
Reevaluating the situation, I don't see how banning semi-auto assault rifles serves a useful purpose or is constitutional under Ohio law, as I don't see banning assault rifles as the least intrusive means of curbing gun violence.
Semi-auto SMG's and AR's are almost useless for criminal use compared to other handguns, rifles, shotguns.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
1.04
It actually says nothing about the militia. Most likely because it is very obvious a militiaman would need to bear arms.
All it says to me is that you may bear any arms that one could make a reasonable case are required for defense and security. When it comes to rights, one should always error on the side of more rights for the individual and less power to the government. I'd say the burden of proof is on Columbus to show that an AR-15 is not a reasonable weapon for self-defense rather than that burden being on GR and other citizens.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Maybe they should amend
the constitution to say that ALL citizens be REQUIRED to carry a gun, or else they don't have the right to vote. I think that would be fair, don't you?
The question would then become at what age. I say 18, or 16 if you get a learners permit.
It is the economy, stupid.
I would object to such an amendment ...
not because I fear everyone having a firearm but because this would be pushing MY values onto others. I believe that everyone should be allowed to make their own choices on this topic, don't you?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
ha ha that's funny
You don't want to push your values........ ha!
Don't you want America to be safe. A mandatory gun ownership law would make America ultra safe!
A chicken in every pot, and a gun in every hand! Whooooot! There would be NO crime! That would be fantastic.
It is the economy, stupid.
Exactly how is letting everyone decide for themselves ...
pushing my values on people?
Gun grabbers, on the other hand, demand that everyone live on THEIR terms no questions asked.
I report. You decide.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree